game programming (was: Why is this assembly program not quitting on ESC?)

Hi, pal,

I am working my way through this 16bit assembly tutorial,
https://github.com/adamsmasher/sokobanDOS/tree/master/lesson2

I've briefly seen this tutorial but not heavily delved into it.
It's somewhat short and incomplete, though.

except that I'm using the OpenWatcom assembler, wasm.
As far as I know, I've translated the nasm syntax to wasm correctly;
which is incidentally pretty similar to masm.

Any huge reason (debugging??) to prefer WASM over NASM? Honestly,
JWasm is much better, especially for powerful MASMv6 syntax.

* https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/JWasm/tree/master/bin
* https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/asm/jwasm/
* http://www.terraspace.co.uk/uasm.html

* http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.com/index.html

And from reading the code, I'm fairly certain *it should work* but doesn't.
When I run it in DOSBox-X, it doesn't quit when I press escape.
wasm dostut2.asm
wlink sys dos com file dostut2.obj
and then running it in DOSBox-X. I'm fairly certain the problem is with
my code, and not in DOSBox-X.

Okay, so you're cross-assembling atop a foreign host OS.
(Use DOSEMU, if you can!)

One guy (decades ago) wrote a Space Invaders clone for DOS
(8086, VGA, .COM) in assembly. I've written a lot of Sed scripts
to convert it to various assemblers (NASM, WASM, JWasm, etc. etc.).
That might be (more??) instructive for you here.

* http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/psrinvad.html

JWasm worked with almost no changes nor linker! But anyways, here's
how I linked a modified copy with weaker WASM (and yes, it uses
"END BEGIN" as main):

wasm -zq inv-wat.asm
wlink op q format dos com file inv-wat.obj
if not exist inv-wat.com warplink /c inv-wat >NUL

(WarpLink is DOS only, yet my .BAT/sed combo works in DOS or Windows.
Hence the use of WLINK, which is frankly overkill. For .COM, you
usually don't want to mess with linkers at all. JWasm can output
.COM directly, as can many other assemblers. Unless you're using
third-party .OBJ or .LIB, it's easier to not use a linker at all.)

Syntax can be a nightmare, especially for x86 assembly. JWasm can
handle MASMv5 and (much more complicated) v6. It's an improved
WASM, literally, much better at two-pass handling. WASM also
partially supports -zcm=tasm for Ideal mode. Something like
(shareware) A86 can only halfway support older MASMv5.
LazyAsm (LZASM) basically has full Ideal support (only!).

In short, there are many assemblers, and you definitely have to choose
wisely. Some are easier to use, more compatible, faster, free-r, or
better for debugging.

Having said that, I would recommend a HLL for such game programming.
Assembly is still good and fun, but HLLs are better supported, and
you won't have to reinvent the wheel. Just saying, there are other
cool games, too!

* http://ftp.lanet.lv/ftp/mirror/x2ftp/msdos/programming/gamesrc/00index.html
(e.g. Boboli [C, DJGPP] or the original .ZIP of PSR Invaders)

* http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/games/arcade/invaders/
(Xinvaders 3D: C, DJGPP/Allegro)

* https://thandor.net/article/34
* https://thandor.net/article/37
(Bloxinies: Turbo Pascal)

* http://games.phatcode.net/dumpquery.php?section=Title&query=Germs
(Germs [Dr. Mario clone]: QBasic)

* https://wiki.freepascal.org/DOS
("FPC demo programs such as Fpctris and Samegame work in all supported
memory models.")

* http://fabiensanglard.net/gebb/
(PDFs about Wolf3D and Doom internals)

* https://github.com/TobiasKarnat/Wolf4GW
(Wolf3D: converted to C++ for OpenWatcom)

* https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=40857
([Doom] MBF 2.04: C, DJGPP/Allegro)

* https://freedoom.github.io/
(FreeDoom, BSD-licensed levels ... new release just last week!)

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson

2019-10-31 10:08:49 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
Hi, pal,

Hey there yourself!

I am working my way through this 16bit assembly tutorial,
https://github.com/adamsmasher/sokobanDOS/tree/master/lesson2

I've briefly seen this tutorial but not heavily delved into it.
It's somewhat short and incomplete, though.

Yes, very much incomplete. That, and replies here on c.o.m.p have given
answers to a lot of things I didn't know about assembly programming and
linking them.

except that I'm using the OpenWatcom assembler, wasm.
As far as I know, I've translated the nasm syntax to wasm correctly;
which is incidentally pretty similar to masm.

Any huge reason (debugging??) to prefer WASM over NASM? Honestly,
JWasm is much better, especially for powerful MASMv6 syntax.

I'm using OpenWatcom for C programming, so it feels most natural to use
the wasm assembler, rather than a 3rd party tool. I might switch to
jwasm, though no promises.

[snip links]

Post by r***@gmail.com
* http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.com/index.html

Interesting that my antivirus program blocks that link. I'll have to
fight my antivirus program some other day. Though, from memory, that
book depends too much on simulated environment for my tastes. I'd
rather deal with books that program for DOS directly, rather than have
exercises that show registers change in a custom debugger.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Okay, so you're cross-assembling atop a foreign host OS.
(Use DOSEMU, if you can!)

Yes, my development OS is currently Windows 10.

Post by r***@gmail.com
One guy (decades ago) wrote a Space Invaders clone for DOS
(8086, VGA, .COM) in assembly. I've written a lot of Sed scripts
to convert it to various assemblers (NASM, WASM, JWasm, etc. etc.).
That might be (more??) instructive for you here.
* http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/psrinvad.html

What am I supposed to do with this link? Download and view the source?

[snip]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Syntax can be a nightmare, especially for x86 assembly. JWasm can
handle MASMv5 and (much more complicated) v6. It's an improved
WASM, literally, much better at two-pass handling. WASM also
partially supports -zcm=tasm for Ideal mode. Something like
(shareware) A86 can only halfway support older MASMv5.
LazyAsm (LZASM) basically has full Ideal support (only!).
In short, there are many assemblers, and you definitely have to choose
wisely. Some are easier to use, more compatible, faster, free-r, or
better for debugging.

I wanted to learn assembly, 16bit specifically, and in a context where
I'd be able to use what I learn with OpenWatcom C, hence wasm.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Having said that, I would recommend a HLL for such game programming.
Assembly is still good and fun, but HLLs are better supported, and
you won't have to reinvent the wheel. Just saying, there are other
cool games, too!

I mean to use C for most of the tasks I have set out to do.

[snip game links]

Thanks,

--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | twitter: @myrkraverk

T. Ment

2019-10-31 14:47:53 UTC

it feels most natural to use the wasm assembler,
rather than a 3rd party tool. I might switch to jwasm

For learning, get Microsoft.

https://winworldpc.com/product/macro-assembler/5x

I like 4.0, but it only has full segment directives. Simplified segment
directives were a new feature of 5.x. Some books (Wyatt) require a 6.x
version. Beware the 6.11d patch, they broke something that makes one of
Chappell's DOS internals examples fail. 6.11 works though.

If Microsoft cared about their MASM copyrights, they would tell winworld
to take it down. But they never do. They know that's not smart business.
While Novell sued teenage BBS pirates, Microsoft audited large corporate
users. And look what happened to Novell.

It's just archaeology now anyway. Nobody cares about a few researchers
digging around in the ruins.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-01 01:36:17 UTC

Hi,

it feels most natural to use the wasm assembler,
rather than a 3rd party tool. I might switch to jwasm

For learning, get Microsoft.

Ancient versions better than JWasm? I doubt it!

Post by T. Ment
I like 4.0, but it only has full segment directives. Simplified segment
directives were a new feature of 5.x. Some books (Wyatt) require a 6.x
version. Beware the 6.11d patch, they broke something that makes one of
Chappell's DOS internals examples fail. 6.11 works though.

MASM 4.0 is too weak. IIRC, it wouldn't assemble PSR Invaders
without lots of work.

Post by T. Ment
If Microsoft cared about their MASM copyrights, they would tell winworld
to take it down. But they never do. They know that's not smart business.
While Novell sued teenage BBS pirates, Microsoft audited large corporate
users. And look what happened to Novell.
It's just archaeology now anyway. Nobody cares about a few researchers
digging around in the ruins.

* http://bytepointer.com/masm/index.htm

There were many versions of MASM. The first ones were written in
MS Pascal. It was later rewritten in C. You'd have to contact
Marc McDonald (or similar person) for clarity, but likely you're
not allowed to do much with old versions. (Although I think
the public releases of MS-DOS 1.1 and 2.0 in recent years
included an ancient binary only, but that's one of the few
exceptions.)

My point is that copyright law, especially for software, is
extremely belligerent. Don't assume anything. Most of it
is illegal, even if old, useless, broken, abandoned, no
longer sold, etc.

Having said that, there are so many variations and derivatives
of MASM that you can't be sure who even owns half of them.
Remember Arrowsoft Assembler, the so-called "freeware" MASM
clone (distributed on Simtel for decades)?? It was actually a
hacked MASM 4.0 (which was called 2.00c). I think the older
1.00d was actually MASM 3.0. Yeah, very strange, very bizarre.
Just FYI, the 2.00c version only had a few hundred bytes
difference to MASM 4.0. Someone hacked the internal C runtime
copyright (to falsely pretend it was built by Borland tools),
compressed it with LZEXE, then wiped out the "LZ91" signature
so you didn't know any better. Do you think MS didn't know
about that?? Who knows, but that doesn't quite mean they
approve either.

Just because MS stopped supporting DOS and focused on
Win95 (PE/COFF instead of MZ/OBJ) doesn't mean they
can't still enforce ridiculously old copyrights. Don't
waste your time with MASM. All new code should use something
else. JWasm is OSI ("open source"), but most people would
still recommend NASM or FASM instead.

T. Ment

2019-11-01 02:10:34 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
Just because MS stopped supporting DOS and focused on
Win95 (PE/COFF instead of MZ/OBJ) doesn't mean they
can't still enforce ridiculously old copyrights.

Law is one thing. Enforcement is another.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Don't waste your time with MASM

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

Post by r***@gmail.com
All new code should use something else.

"New code"? I wonder if you even know what NG you're posting in.

Post by r***@gmail.com
JWasm is OSI ("open source")

Japheth disappeared. Death I suppose. I doubt anyone else knows enough
to hack it. Might as well use the real thing: MASM.

Post by r***@gmail.com
but most people would still recommend NASM or FASM instead.

"Most people" are gone. Hardly anyone left but trolls who wake up now
and then, to confuse and distract newcomers. The few good people can be
counted on 10 fingers.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-01 02:22:17 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
Just because MS stopped supporting DOS and focused on
Win95 (PE/COFF instead of MZ/OBJ) doesn't mean they
can't still enforce ridiculously old copyrights.

Law is one thing. Enforcement is another.

It's not worth the risk, IMHO, especially with good alternatives.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Don't waste your time with MASM

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

There are some potential advantages, but you can say that
about most programming tools. It doesn't quite negate
disadvantages, though, so I wouldn't honestly recommend
MASM or TASM syntax (outside of updating legacy code).

Post by r***@gmail.com
All new code should use something else.

"New code"? I wonder if you even know what NG you're posting in.

Some people still write new software for DOS. It might be anemic,
but FreeDOS is still kicking.

Post by r***@gmail.com
JWasm is OSI ("open source")

Japheth disappeared. Death I suppose. I doubt anyone else knows
enough to hack it. Might as well use the real thing: MASM.

He's not dead. I posted a link to his Github. Latest Win32 binary
is dated "21-Aug-2018" (last year). Latest UASM (formerly HJWasm)
is apparently dated "21-Jun-2019" (few months ago).

"Use the real thing" ... licensing may be murky, and newer versions
(since 10.0) don't support DOS output anymore anyways.

Post by r***@gmail.com
but most people would still recommend NASM or FASM instead.

"Most people" are gone. Hardly anyone left but trolls who wake up now
and then, to confuse and distract newcomers. The few good people can be
counted on 10 fingers.

Moreso I meant those who follow FSF's (and Debian's, etc) opinion
that OpenWatcom, despite being "open source" (OSI), is "non-free".
So, at least to them, you should use something else.
Although FreeDOS suggests OpenWatcom *and* NASM.

But yeah, whatever, the OP can use whatever tools he wants.

T. Ment

2019-11-01 02:52:10 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
"Use the real thing" ... licensing may be murky

I already told you. Microsoft would take Winworld down if they cared.
Why don't you go bother them instead of us with your paranoid ranting.

Post by r***@gmail.com
but most people would still recommend NASM or FASM instead.

Moreso I meant those who follow FSF's (and Debian's, etc) opinion
that OpenWatcom, despite being "open source" (OSI), is "non-free"
So, at least to them, you should use something else.
Although FreeDOS suggests OpenWatcom *and* NASM.

In 1984 I didn't care about the FSF and I still don't today.

Post by r***@gmail.com
But yeah, whatever, the OP can use whatever tools he wants.

The OP wants to learn Watcom and write C code. You want to send him on a
fool's errand.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-02 08:02:28 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
But yeah, whatever, the OP can use whatever tools he wants.

The OP wants to learn Watcom and write C code. You want to send him on a
fool's errand.

Oh, that reminds me of the obvious answer: Paul Carter's (free online)
assembly book:

* http://pacman128.github.io/pcasm/

It's 32-bit and links with C, even coming with OpenWatcom examples
(among others, e.g. DJGPP). That sounds right up his alley.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-03 02:34:04 UTC

On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 02:52:10 +0000

Post by r***@gmail.com
but most people would still recommend NASM or FASM instead.

In 1984 I didn't care about the FSF and I still don't today.

Close, but no cigar ...

They weren't around in 1984:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation

I wasn't aware they were around that long ago.
I think I would've guessed mid 90's.

I.e., 1984 slightly pre-dates their existence, and logically, you can't
not care about something which doesn't yet exist.

Too persnickety?

Rod Pemberton

--
Why are humans trying to un-bias A.I.? That's a human bias. Humans
don't want pure A.I. What humans want is slave-A.I.

T. Ment

2019-11-03 04:11:57 UTC

Post by T. Ment
In 1984 I didn't care about the FSF and I still don't today.

1984 slightly pre-dates their existence, and logically, you can't
not care about something which doesn't yet exist

By definition I can.

Post by Rod Pemberton
Too persnickety?

Inverted logic. Common to atheists.

T. Ment

2019-11-01 15:12:15 UTC

Post by T. Ment
Japheth disappeared. Death I suppose. I doubt anyone else knows
enough to hack it. Might as well use the real thing: MASM.

He's not dead. I posted a link to his Github

I could not find Japheth on github. Only some people who uploaded his
code. He was very active before disappearing. I doubt he suddenly lost
interest. What could explain it but death. I would be happy to learn
otherwise.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-02 08:33:03 UTC

Hi,

Post by T. Ment
Japheth disappeared. Death I suppose. I doubt anyone else knows
enough to hack it. Might as well use the real thing: MASM.

He's not dead. I posted a link to his Github

"New Download address for HX, Jemm386 , JWasm ..."

* http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=15450

Japheth (23.08.2018) wrote:

"
Hello,

My old web site japheth.de is no longer functional Some projects can now be
found at GitHub:

https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel
"

(and later)

"
All projects on Github are updated versions. There's a bin directory where
you should find precompiled binaries. It's kind of prerelease, though.
"

Also, he was active in the thread "Need help with DPMI function 301h"
a little over two months ago.

(Granted, I wouldn't call him super active anymore, no, but he's
still barely around. I don't know more than that, though.)

T. Ment

2019-11-02 12:03:26 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel

I was unaware of the name change.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Also, he was active in the thread "Need help with DPMI function 301h"
a little over two months ago.

I wouldn't know about that either. I don't spend time on web forums
where childish self serving moderators ban code authors like Jack. I
would hate to meet the losers who put you in charge of anything.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-02 23:47:06 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
Also, he was active in the thread "Need help with DPMI function 301h"
a little over two months ago.

I never banned Jack from anything. I literally couldn't if I tried.

I'm an accidental moderator at BTTR, not admin. I could maybe unban
him, but last I heard, he himself requested his account be deactivated
(years ago) due to other disputes that had nothing to do with me.
He has no interest there (and even dislikes them for other,
unjustified, reasons). Certainly I'm not stopping him from posting
there.

I had spent years mirroring and announcing his drivers for FreeDOS.
I also was fervently trying to get him back on the mailing list
(after SF.net started requiring SSL to subscribe/unsubscribe).
I spent months giving him workarounds, but he wouldn't even update
his web browser for free! I conveyed info back and forth for a
bug ticket on SF.net for him (created by Jim Hall), but he didn't
care. So he then "gave up" on "FleaDOS". That too wasn't my fault.

He did later get banned at freedos-user because of his personal
attacks towards me and his refusal to stop. That ban wasn't my
decision (although I was reluctantly in favor). One guy on BTTR
had pointed to his drivers, and I pointed them to a newer version,
saying "but these new ones don't work at all for me anymore",
hoping someone would test further. (They didn't.) Jack took that
as a personal attack and went on a rampage against me. Even when
I rebuked him, corrected him, clarified, he still didn't care.
(This was all after he "gave up".) So he went closed source and
stayed that way, punishing literally everyone. Yes, he
(falsely) blamed me for going closed source, even though
his drivers regressed and literally wouldn't boot for me
anymore!

I don't think you understand the severe anguish, bitter hatred,
and PTSD (or mental illness or whatever) that Jack has. It's
not because people did anything to him (AFAIK). Even those
who helped him and were nice to him for years have had to
endure his irrational, unjustified vengeance. He's very angry
and antagonistic.

There's a difference between eccentric, irritable, and just
plain destructive. He's impossible to deal with.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-03 02:44:57 UTC

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
***@gmail.com wrote:

<OT>
<rant>

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't think you understand the severe anguish, bitter hatred,
and PTSD (or mental illness or whatever) that Jack has.

Hey, are "we" talking about Jack Ellis? If so, I'll back that up.

Initially, I was very, very happy that someone was actively producing
stuff for DOS that was needed. I tried out everything he had for a few
years. However, numerous guys legitimately complained about bugs in his
code (including me), and then he'd go ape shit. He took it /VERY/
personally. Psychotic. I knew people in high school that were that
way, but really hadn't come across anymore hotheads IRL since then,
i.e., most attempting to be professional. Instead of Jack testing his
code or even saying it was untested, he'd just throw it out there with
every trivial change. None of his code ever worked here. It wouldn't
work with my motherboards, nor MS-DOS, nor Windows 98/SE. I.e., it
must've been produced for some other motherboards or another brand of
DOS, e.g., FreeDOS, DR-DOS, or PC-DOS etc. How can you produce stuff
for DOS and not have it work with MS-DOS? ... So, after a few years, I
gave up attempting to even try out his stuff anymore. I think that was
a few years back. Maybe, he'll get better with time and the rough
edges will wear down. So, I'd say give him another 10 years. IIRC,
Japheth tracked down a few serious bugs for him. He seemed to be the
only guy Jack respected. As a result, he ranks in the top six of the
most arrogant programmers (of which most on Usenet are ...) that I've
come across on either Usenet or the Internet. In every case, it seems
like these hotheads have some emotionally invested interest in either
their personal project or their status in a group, so they can't stand
criticism or complaints.

</rant>

I would've joined in on the copyright issues, but the issue of
copyrights just seems to come up way too much in most groups, including
one in another group a few days ago. So, I get tired of correcting and
informing people on actual U.S. laws, case rulings, and court
procedures. I usually end up dropping out of these conversations
because people will continue to argue long after being presented with
the facts. They remind me of my brother when he was four to eight
years old. He would argue to the death he was correct, even when he
knew for a fact he wasn't. Even after admitting he was wrong one day,
he would argue he was correct the next day about the same issue. You
can't inform or educate someone like that. To them, it's about
winning, not about learning, nor about the truth.

Rod Pemberton

--
Why are humans trying to un-bias A.I.? That's a human bias. Humans
don't want pure A.I. What humans want is slave-A.I.

T. Ment

2019-11-03 03:39:31 UTC

Post by Rod Pemberton
Hey, are "we" talking about Jack Ellis?
Initially, I was very, very happy that someone was actively producing
stuff for DOS that was needed. I tried out everything he had for a few
years. However, numerous guys legitimately complained about bugs in his
code (including me), and then he'd go ape shit. He took it /VERY/
personally. Psychotic.

If the code doesn't work for you, don't use it. Complaining about the
author's personality is childish.

If you're not a lawyer, I wouldn't trust what you say anyway.

Post by Rod Pemberton
it's about winning, not about learning, nor about the truth.

Atheism is not truth. It's a false premise.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-03 07:47:44 UTC

On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 03:39:31 +0000

Post by Rod Pemberton
Hey, are "we" talking about Jack Ellis?
Initially, I was very, very happy that someone was actively
producing stuff for DOS that was needed. I tried out everything he
had for a few years. However, numerous guys legitimately
complained about bugs in his code (including me), and then he'd go
ape shit. He took it /VERY/ personally. Psychotic.

If the code doesn't work for you, don't use it.

Didn't I state that was exactly what I did? (yes)

Post by T. Ment
Complaining about the author's personality is childish.

Where did I say he needed to be fixed? (nowhere)

FYI, I didn't complain about the author's personality anywhere. I
simply reiterated the truth of the events. You conflated the
restated truth with a complaint about him. They aren't the same.

If you're not a lawyer, I wouldn't trust what you say anyway.

Stupid. As if I don't have access to lawyers or legal articles from
respected professors ...

Post by Rod Pemberton
it's about winning, not about learning, nor about the truth.

Atheism is not truth. It's a false premise.

Why have you started calling me an atheist? That's exceptionally
presumptive.

Rod Pemberton

--
Why are humans trying to un-bias A.I.? That's a human bias. Humans
don't want pure A.I. What humans want is slave-A.I.

T. Ment

2019-11-03 14:38:41 UTC

Post by T. Ment
Complaining about the author's personality is childish.

I didn't complain about the author's personality anywhere.
he'd go ape shit. He took it /VERY/ personally. Psychotic.

That's opinion, You're no doctor.

Post by Rod Pemberton
simply reiterated the truth of the events. You conflated the
restated truth with a complaint about him. They aren't the same.

No, you embellished with your own opinion.

Post by T. Ment
If you're not a lawyer, I wouldn't trust what you say anyway.

Stupid. As if I don't have access to lawyers or legal articles from
respected professors ...

Reading a lot doesn't make you a lawyer.

How many times must I repeat, Winworldpc has Microsoft and Borland DOS
programming tools anyone can download. After much time, not a word from
Microsoft. THEY DON'T CARE.

This group has "msdos.programmer" in the name. That makes it about code.
Legality is just noise.

Post by Rod Pemberton
Why have you started calling me an atheist?

I thought you were, based on past remarks. But if you don't believe in
atheism anymore, say so.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-11 17:24:30 UTC

On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 14:38:41 +0000

Post by T. Ment
Complaining about the author's personality is childish.

I didn't complain about the author's personality anywhere.
he'd go ape shit. He took it /VERY/ personally. Psychotic.

That's opinion, You're no doctor.

No, it's not. That's a statement of fact. That was observable. There
was no speculation.

If you had read rugxulo's posts, you'd know he witnessed the same,
witnessed much more of it, and witnessed stuff that was far, far more
extreme. I wasn't involved in those other groups or forums that Jack
frequented or where he remained active. By comparison to me, rugxulo
was verbally abused and harassed.

If I had said I suspected he was high or drunk at the time, something
which wasn't directly observable, something for which I had to
speculate upon, and stated that, then that's an opinion. Expressing
exactly what I witnessed is a statement of fact, not an opinion.

If I had said he was a psychopath, not psychotic, that too might've
been an opinion, as I'm not a doctor, even though the term psychopath
is in common usage as well as a medical term. If I said he acts like
he's "shell shocked" that'd be a statement of fact, but if I said he
has undiagnosed PTSD that'd be an opinion. One is observable. The
other is not. One requires no special training. The other does.

Post by Rod Pemberton
simply reiterated the truth of the events. You conflated the
restated truth with a complaint about him. They aren't the same.

No, you embellished with your own opinion.

Well, that's your opinion. Now, you're attempting to tell me that I
didn't witness something which I clearly witnessed. You're attempting
to mis-classify or reclassify factual events as merely my opinion.

Post by T. Ment
If you're not a lawyer, I wouldn't trust what you say anyway.

Stupid. As if I don't have access to lawyers or legal articles from
respected professors ...

Reading a lot doesn't make you a lawyer.

Reading a lot tells you what the lawyers believe and know.

If I believe and know what they believe and know, and we both express
the exact same thing, why do you choose to "shoot the messenger?" Does
it make any difference as to whom the information came from, if it's
exactly the same information from either source? Logically, in that
situation, it shouldn't matter. Second hand information is only an
issue if the information was distorted or either content or context was
lost.

What you're saying is that if I say something exactly the same as what
a certain lawyer says, i.e., quoted, correctly paraphrased or
summarized, then it has no value simply because I don't meet the
requirements to be a lawyer, even though the same information came from
the same lawyer. I don't agree with that perspective. If I did, I
wouldn't believe anything printed in books, magazine articles, or taught
to me by professors, lawyers, doctors, or engineers, as these are all
second hand sources of primary information. No one in these
respectable professions are primary sources of information, unless
they're an expert doing the initial research or the first to solve some
fundamental problem. None of us learned about the theory of relativity
from Albert Einstein, nor the laws of motion from Isaac Newton, nor
calculus from Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, nor Christianity from Jesus
Christ, etc. It's all secondhand information.

Post by T. Ment
How many times must I repeat, Winworldpc has Microsoft and Borland DOS
programming tools anyone can download. After much time, not a word
from Microsoft. THEY DON'T CARE.

IMO, bizarre off-topic micro-rant.

Why do you keep posting this? I don't understand what the point of
this is.

Post by Rod Pemberton
Why have you started calling me an atheist?

I thought you were, based on past remarks. But if you don't believe in
atheism anymore, say so.

...

Post by T. Ment
I thought you were, [an atheist]

Well, that's clearly your opinion.
(unless you read where I stated what I was/am, which I rather doubt)

According to their definitions, when self-applied, I'm neither atheist
nor agnostic. The closest term would be non-religious. I could see
how if those definitions were applied to me by someone else, especially
someone who is religiously-biased or faithful, that I could fit into
those definitions. Except, that by your own logic above, that would
qualify either definition as merely opinions about me.

Post by T. Ment
... if [you] don't believe in atheism anymore ..."

LOL.

Since when did atheism become a "religion" or faith or ideology or
philosophy or any fundamental system of belief whatsoever? ... That's
somewhat like saying anarchy is a belief system.

Post by T. Ment
based on past remarks.

Based on past remarks?

Your "T. Ment" identity has only been on Usenet for about a year
according to Google Groups. Off hand, I don't recall seeing your posts
that often ... Let's see where you've been which correlates to where
I've been:

comp.lang.misc 2
comp.os.msdos.programmer 277
alt.os.development 100

Wow. That's alot more posts by you than I recall. Zero content?
(You must admit that your posts are semi-hostile and slightly troll-ish
and lacking in relevant content. Or, is that just my opinion of
them? ...)

Okay, from that selection, I'm guessing you interjected yourself and
your opinions into some of Rick Hodgin's formerly incessant off-topic
religious spam on a.o.d. which were driving everyone there crazy, even
the self-admitted Christians, if you recall.

Rod Pemberton

--
Why is it that Hollywood thinks they're insulting Donald Trump? They're
not insulting him. They're insulting the 63 million who voted for him.

T. Ment

2019-11-11 17:46:21 UTC

I'm neither atheist nor agnostic. The closest term would be non-religious.

You sound like an atheist. Confusing religion with God.

Your "T. Ment" identity has only been on Usenet for about a year
according to Google Groups. Off hand, I don't recall seeing your posts
that often ... Let's see where you've been which correlates to where
comp.lang.misc 2
comp.os.msdos.programmer 277
alt.os.development 100

Posting that is kooky.

You must admit that your posts are semi-hostile

It only seems that way to the kooks.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-11 18:02:46 UTC

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:46:21 +0000

I'm neither atheist nor agnostic. The closest term would be
non-religious.

You sound like an atheist. Confusing religion with God.

That's yet another opinion by you, two actually.

Your "T. Ment" identity has only been on Usenet for about a year
according to Google Groups. Off hand, I don't recall seeing your
posts that often ... Let's see where you've been which correlates
comp.lang.misc 2
comp.os.msdos.programmer 277
alt.os.development 100

Posting that is kooky.

That's yet another opinion by you. It took just a few minutes to
search (find command) and count (wc command) my newsreaders newscache
on Linux.

You must admit that your posts are semi-hostile

It only seems that way to the kooks.

That's yet another opinion by you, and insult. Why are you so
troll-ish?

For a guy (or gal) who doesn't like the supposed opinions of others,
you sure do have a lot of them.

Rod Pemberton

--
Why is it that Hollywood thinks they're insulting Donald Trump? They're
not insulting him. They're insulting the 63 million who voted for him.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-03 13:48:10 UTC

Hi,

Post by Rod Pemberton
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
<OT>
<rant>

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't think you understand the severe anguish, bitter hatred,
and PTSD (or mental illness or whatever) that Jack has.

Hey, are "we" talking about Jack Ellis? If so, I'll back that up.

I don't know why this guy brought it up. Normally, I'd rather stick
to technical discussions (only). But he seems bitter, which is weird.
Clearly, he doesn't know Jack! Else he wouldn't blame me at all.

Post by Rod Pemberton
Initially, I was very, very happy that someone was actively producing
stuff for DOS that was needed. I tried out everything he had for a few
years. However, numerous guys legitimately complained about bugs in his
code (including me), and then he'd go ape shit. He took it /VERY/
personally. Psychotic.

Jack has other issues and grudges, which are also irrational.
I should still be minimally sympathetic to him, but he makes it
very difficult when he's directly antagonistic (without provocation).

Post by Rod Pemberton
Instead of Jack testing his code or even saying it was untested,
he'd just throw it out there with every trivial change. None of
his code ever worked here. It wouldn't work with my motherboards,
nor MS-DOS, nor Windows 98/SE.

He has testers, but they are very few. He also has too many (minor)
releases. He's also impatient and doesn't like dealing with users.

Post by Rod Pemberton
So, after a few years, I gave up attempting to even try out his
stuff anymore. I think that was a few years back.

He did do an (unannounced! very minor, partial?) update to his
"Free" drivers earlier this year. But he still keeps updating
his closed sources versions, too, which is pointless. I don't
know who he thinks he's helping, it makes no sense. I really
wouldn't waste my time at this point, for many reasons.

He's also burned a lot of bridges, intentionally, very destructive.
Again, I don't think he wants to help many. Maybe some (unknown),
but it surely isn't FreeDOS (although they never did anything to
him, nor I either).

Post by Rod Pemberton
Maybe, he'll get better with time and the rough edges will wear down.
So, I'd say give him another 10 years.

I doubt it. A leopard can't change his spots. Not to be rude, but he's
already in his 70s. He's very bitter about many things, especially
governments, certain nations, modern software, etc.

At least, if you take him at his word (and don't get too paranoid
and assume some of his messages were spoofed by an unknown third-party),
he's an old, retired, sickly engineer living on a fixed income.
It seems even more absurd knowing that he claimed to be running
Windows NT 4.0 (circa 1996) atop an Athlon XP (P3 clone) on dialup!
I still tried to help him, but it's a lost cause. He wouldn't budge
an inch, and in fairness, modern society does tend to progress and
throw away old software and hardware too quickly. So even my meager
workarounds for him (which he rejected) aren't enough anymore.

Post by Rod Pemberton
Japheth tracked down a few serious bugs for him. He seemed to be the
only guy Jack respected. As a result, he ranks in the top six of the
most arrogant programmers (of which most on Usenet are ...) that I've
come across on either Usenet or the Internet.

Well, even Japheth is very eccentric and not a people person. He
also isn't very sympathetic to FreeDOS, so he's not much direct help.
It's somewhat self-defeating, honestly, but FreeDOS has never made
too much of an impact (being stuck between Freedom and proprietary,
which pleases no purists). I love FreeDOS for what it does, but
most people can't see the forest for the trees. ("Just use Linux!")

Post by Rod Pemberton
I would've joined in on the copyright issues, but the issue of
copyrights just seems to come up way too much in most groups, including
one in another group a few days ago. So, I get tired of correcting and
informing people on actual U.S. laws, case rulings, and court
procedures. I usually end up dropping out of these conversations
because people will continue to argue long after being presented with
the facts.

There's a lot of gray area, a lot of legal hurdles and abandoned
software (not "abandonware"). Some things are no longer sold or
have confusing (conflicting?) licenses. If the author is deceased,
I don't understand that, guess it's just "stuck" in limbo or whatever
(can't relicense). Most people aren't responsive or even available,
so you can't even ask them for clarification, much less relicensing.
FreeDOS just takes what it can get, but overall it's very sloppy
(unavoidably). Even "Linux" isn't really "Free" (according to FSF),
and modern x86 cpus have all kinds of problems (firmware, binary
blobs, microcode, non-free BIOS, PSP or whatever). Debian says
DOSEMU is non-free because of non-free tools (OpenWatcom! OSI!),
but FSF says even Debian isn't Free!

Fun! /s

T. Ment

2019-11-03 14:11:30 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
Jack has other issues and grudges, which are also irrational

I only had to read one of your long winded rants on the web forum to
know who has the problem. As your long winded post just now shows, you
have an obsession with Jack.

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't know why this guy brought it up

Liars need to be exposed. They deserve destruction.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-03 14:29:18 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
Jack has other issues and grudges, which are also irrational

I only had to read one of your long winded rants on the web forum to
know who has the problem.

You have zero reason to blame me here, and I've never heard
anyone imply such. Even your own bias lies to you.

Post by T. Ment
As your long winded post just now shows, you
have an obsession with Jack.

I haven't had any direct contact with him in years. Once he
asked me to stop emailing him, I haven't done so since. But
he's still emailed me several times since then, usually with
vicious (unjustified) insults. Not to mention public insults
on freedos-user (which got him banned). So it's hard to ignore
someone who never goes away (even if they, multiple times,
say they will.)

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't know why this guy brought it up

Liars need to be exposed. They deserve destruction.

The devil is a liar. Literally, "devil" means "slanderer".
As a Christian, yes, I have many (unjustified) enemies.
Go read Psalm 109, and tell me what you think.

(Jack and I never talked about religion, though he did
say once on freedos-user that he was Christian. It was
weird since he was insulting me, but I never did anything.
I think he wanted sympathy, but the world is not sympathetic!
He's a convert from Judaism but still apparently hates Germany.
Not sure what that has to do with me, but he still found a
way to point that anger at me, too. He's irrational.)

I'm not calling Jack a slanderer, but he is the one who 100%
directly blames me (in his own words) for him going closed
source. Because of one sentence (that apparently he misunderstood
as some kind of betrayal), saying his "drivers don't work anymore"
(which is true, for me, for that one release, on my desktop,
as, later, my screenshot proved).

So, sue me if I try to clarify the exact details of this disaster.
We had a SF.net bug ticket opened for him just to try to keep
him on the mailing list. So some of us were trying to help him
stick around. But he refused all of our help, got angry, and
went closed source, which helps no one (at least, not in this
case, it's a regression).

Do you still not understand this?

T. Ment

2019-11-03 14:52:21 UTC

Post by T. Ment
Liars need to be exposed. They deserve destruction.

The devil is a liar. Literally, "devil" means "slanderer".
As a Christian, yes, I have many (unjustified) enemies.

It's good to hear you believe.

Post by r***@gmail.com
So, sue me if I try to clarify the exact details of this disaster.
Do you still not understand this?

And here you posted yet another long winded rant about it. You have a
personal problem with Jack. Being a Christian does not excuse character
flaws. Accept the blame and stop ranting. Christians bear their cross.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-03 14:59:28 UTC

Hi,

Post by T. Ment
Liars need to be exposed. They deserve destruction.

The devil is a liar. Literally, "devil" means "slanderer".
As a Christian, yes, I have many (unjustified) enemies.

It's good to hear you believe.

Is it? Apparently you don't believe me. Not everything is a lie.

Post by r***@gmail.com
So, sue me if I try to clarify the exact details of this disaster.
Do you still not understand this?

And here you posted yet another long winded rant about it.

It's not that hard to understand, yet you found a way!

Post by T. Ment
You have a personal problem with Jack.

Having been directly insulted many times, for no obvious reason,
tends to do that to a person. I'd rather not quote him just to
prove a point, but it was certainly immoral.

Post by T. Ment
Being a Christian does not excuse character flaws.

I'm telling the truth.

Post by T. Ment
Accept the blame and stop ranting. Christians bear their cross.

I didn't do anything wrong, so I can't accept any blame. The
cross is unjustified against an innocent man, that's the whole
point!

T. Ment

2019-11-03 15:41:50 UTC

Post by T. Ment
It's good to hear you believe.

Is it? Apparently you don't believe me. Not everything is a lie.

Your statement of faith may be genuine. But that's not the issue here.

Post by r***@gmail.com
I didn't do anything wrong

You did, and you're still doing it here. Take it back to the web forum.
I don't care if you ruin that place.

Post by r***@gmail.com
I can't accept any blame. The cross is unjustified against an
innocent man, that's the whole point!

Christians suffer quietly. But not you. You're like a drunk who won't
shut up. Arguing with drunks is a waste of time.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-04 22:27:59 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
I didn't do anything wrong

You did, and you're still doing it here.

If you say so.

About this situation you know literally nothing. And I don't care what you think of me. You're like Job's "friends".

Post by T. Ment
Take it back to the web forum. I don't care if you ruin that place.

You're very smug for someone who knows literally nothing. "Pride comes before a fall."

Post by r***@gmail.com
I can't accept any blame. The cross is unjustified against an
innocent man, that's the whole point!

Christians suffer quietly. But not you.

You're the one calling people liars, losers, childish, drunks, etc.
Don't tell me you're righteous!

Post by T. Ment
You're like a drunk who won't shut up. Arguing with drunks
is a waste of time.

You don't know literally anything. Even when I spell it out for you, you refuse to acknowledge anything. All you want is snarky comments. Your input isn't useful.

Jack doesn't care about you. He's not your friend. Why are you loyal to him? Oh, because his code works for you??

FreeDOS and other Free Software (GPL, OSI, etc) sympathizers demand four freedoms. That is, they can't later take those rights away from you due to imaginary grudges.

* https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

I've seen a post where you say you're using "UIDE" [sic]. He's had many renames since then. The one hosted on iBiblio was the last one with sources. (Apparently his minor update earlier this year was "only" to UHDD and nothing else, even
though he explicitly fixed several other bugs in other pieces in his newer, closed source releases.)

Jack lied and tried to pretend his UIDE drivers were "tainted" to force Jim Hall to remove them. Jim almost did it, too, but I convinced him not to. You can't trust the word of a bitter ex-contributor. Jack did all kinds of nasty things.
He (again) had version checks against FreeDOS in his closed source versions. (His own version history on his website confirms it. Several times!) He even (used to, can't confirm if it's still the case) forbade redistribution,
one of the essential freedoms!

GPL hates this kind of garbage. Even if you don't care for the GPL, at least it doesn't try to take away what you already have! Free Software is the one literally fighting for your right to use your own computer without insane legal hurdles stopping you from breathing through one nostril with both hands tied behind your back. Jack is not your friend. Granted, at least now you can download his closed source directly without having to email his tester privately first (after I publicly complained in late 2017, ironic I know!). I now don't see any explicit redistribution prohibition, but it's not worth the stress, IMHO. He's not trustworthy!

You unfairly called people "losers" who, for years, tried to help him redistribute and share his software. They were fighting for end users like you. They literally did nothing wrong. Oh, I almost forgot.

* https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/site-support/9091/

There's the bug tracker (stuck at "self-service") from 2015. We wasted months on him! He wouldn't even do what the guy told him to do. He did literally nothing. Then he got mad at me, found a way back on the mailing list, bragged about being closed source (punishing *everyone* unfairly), and insulted me heavily with several epithets.

* https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/34253777/

That I don't fully understand. Even for him, it seems out of character. (I never discussed any controversial hot-button topics with him.) He refused to listen to warnings and stop, so yes he got banned (not by me).

* https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/34262147/

The worst part is that I can prove it. He may indeed have health issues.
He might still be confused (like you), but I doubt it. I even spelled it out for him (and others), but nothing improved. There's not much I can do beyond that.

* https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/34206346/

He acts like he understands the "bug comment" (instead of falsely taking my innocent words as some kind of "worst betrayal"), but he never did anything about it. He even acts like he still prefers to be closed source. And yet, in private email, he had told me directly (if you believe him) that my one sentence is the "only reason" he's closed source! (In his next questionable reply, he went back to being confused again.)

* http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=13801#p14140

I locally hosted the "buggy" drivers (that he asked me to mirror via private email!) with screenshots showing that they didn't load for me. That was almost four years ago. Nobody tested, nobody confirmed, Jack didn't recant, didn't open sources, nothing.

There's nothing else I can do for some people. I can tell the truth to the best of my ability, but some people just don't care. That's you!

Post by T. Ment
Liars need to be exposed. They deserve destruction.

You first.

T. Ment

2019-11-05 00:15:59 UTC

Post by T. Ment
Take it back to the web forum. I don't care if you ruin that place.

You're very smug for someone who knows literally nothing

I know what I see. Yet another long winded rant about Jack and how
everything bad is his fault.

Into the killfile you must go.

Rod Pemberton

2019-11-05 04:40:12 UTC

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:48:10 -0800 (PST)

Post by r***@gmail.com
At least, if you take him at his word (and don't get too paranoid
and assume some of his messages were spoofed by an unknown
third-party), he's an old, retired, sickly engineer living on a fixed
income.

So, similar to that guy "Will in Seattle" who won't upgrade his
ancient, dying DOS machines.

Post by r***@gmail.com
It seems even more absurd knowing that he claimed to be
running Windows NT 4.0 (circa 1996) atop an Athlon XP (P3 clone) on
dialup!

I thought those started dying circa 2000 and went extinct by 2010.

Well, it seems that NetZero and ArcZip are still around. It looks like
there are some other /new/ ones now too, e.g., DSL Extreme, Dialup 4
Less, ... Oh, I forgot, a rural home wouldn't have access to
cable/fiber broadband or DSL, so maybe they're using dialup. You'd also
need dialup for satellite internet for the upload link, e.g., rural
home. These companies seem to be marketing it for travelers, probably
for email. One of the larger broadband providers, Frontier, also offers
dialup ... It services more rural communities than other providers.

I was running Win 98/SE until I upgraded to Linux a few years ago as
there were too many security issues being online with it and the
KernelEx project stalled. I still use the MS-DOS portion for DOS
development, but I now use Linux for my main daily machine.
Fortunately, I don't need Windows anymore as I'm not FPS gaming
anymore. This machine is made of parts from 2009 which I assembled
around 2013. It's more than fast enough (excluding gaming) for
everything else: audio, video, broadband, ... It only has two cores,
but it's an unlocked processor.

Rod Pemberton

--
Why is it that Hollywood thinks they're insulting Donald Trump? They're
not insulting him. They're insulting the 63 million who voted for him.

T. Ment

2019-11-03 04:02:45 UTC

Post by r***@gmail.com
I never banned Jack from anything. I literally couldn't if I tried.
I'm an accidental moderator at BTTR, not admin. I could maybe unban
him

That's wishy washy doubletalk. I don't trust a word you say.

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-03 14:14:19 UTC

Hi,

Post by r***@gmail.com
I never banned Jack from anything. I literally couldn't if I tried.
I'm an accidental moderator at BTTR, not admin. I could maybe unban
him

That's wishy washy doubletalk. I don't trust a word you say.

This is not that hard to understand.

I'm not the admin at BTTR, so he could easily come back if others
wanted him to. I wasn't even an active moderator, neither by
request nor instructed what to do. When arguing with Jack, I did
accidentally see that I could hover my mouse over something that
said "unban" him. But at that point, it wouldn't have been wise.

I had spent months trying to help him overcome his technical
hurdles, but he refused all my advice, expecting SF.net to change
their security behavior (which they did not, and none of us
worked for them anyways). Also, Jack is very bitter against
Germany (because of WW2, sigh, yes it's true), where BTTR is
hosted. So he still scorns them (even though I'm American).
He's not a nice person, and he's impossible to deal with. I
really don't want to be around his flamefests and insults.
It's not fair to BTTR nor to anyone else (myself included).
Yes, even an American was the brunt of his useless insults.
I tried to literally ignore him (especially since he "gave
up"), but he wouldn't stay away! He's very obsessively angry.

Jack doesn't care about Free Software (i.e. GPL or FreeDOS, which
tries to be Free: the kernel and shell are GPL, "most" other
stuff in "BASE" is also Free, if at all possible). Ironically,
they do more good than most people, but some still don't care.

His old computer rig made it impossible for him to announce his
newer releases on freedos-user, hosted by SourceForge. I sent
him many emails, but he wanted none of my advice. He wouldn't
even do what the SF.net bug tracker dude told him to do! So
he "gave up". Then he emailed me privately telling me to mirror
a buggy release that wouldn't even boot on my machine. I told
some others, asking them to test, but no one ever did.

Jack somehow found his way back on freedos-user (despite all
his claims). But he used that as a means to attack me personally,
continually, and went closed source just to spite us all.
Remember this is FreeDOS and SourceForge.net. Remember that
we tried to help him. But he doesn't care! So, without sources
and without any sympathy for us (his friends, who helped him),
yes, after several warnings, he eventually got banned there.
(I'm no admin there either, nor moderator.)

Don't lionize him. Don't treat him like a martyr or saint.
Don't put too much value on his drivers either. Obviously
I found them useful (sometimes), but certainly we can do
without. "Just use Linux!" Seriously, I don't know who
he thinks he's helping with his tantrums, but it's a lost
cause. Don't blame FreeDOS (nor myself) for his bad behavior.
We can't change him, stop him, fix him, and we didn't cause
his anger issues either. We didn't do anything to him.
He's just stubborn or conflicted, I suppose. Let's not
demonize him either, but he's certainly impossible to
deal with. (He says he's a Christian. So am I! Let's
pray for him. Life has bigger problems beyond trivial
software bugs and licensing incompatibilities.)

r***@gmail.com

2019-11-01 00:00:31 UTC

Hi,

I am working my way through this 16bit assembly tutorial,

Any huge reason (debugging??) to prefer WASM over NASM? Honestly,
JWasm is much better, especially for powerful MASMv6 syntax.

I'm using OpenWatcom for C programming, so it feels most natural to use
the wasm assembler, rather than a 3rd party tool. I might switch to
jwasm, though no promises.

WASM is basically a MASM clone. Not sure if 2.0-pre is better, but
the one from 1.9 is fairly weak. JWasm is a heavy rewrite, much
improved.

Although I don't think WCC will output assembly directly. You may
have to use WDIS on the resulting .OBJ for that. Things like that
can help tremendously. In fact, I'd almost recommend FPC (i8086-msdos,
aka "ppcross8086") since it supports all the same 16-bit memory
models (well, Huge is in Trunk only). It does output to assembly,
if asked (I forget exactly ... "-al -ANasm", something like that.
Actually, NASM is default for i8086-msdos cross-target.)

Post by r***@gmail.com
* http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.com/index.html

You can download the book offline, IIRC. The only reason I point
you to it is because it emphasizes MASMv6 syntax, which you may
wish to (partially) learn.

Here's an interesting MASM history site:

* http://bytepointer.com/masm/index.htm

QEMU has prebuilt binaries that are easy to get working atop Windows.
Although VBox is better if you have VT-X. Debuggers like (shareware)
D86 and (freeware w/ srcs) Ladsoft's GRDB are nice. It's been a
while since I toyed with OpenWatcom's WD, but that's pretty
good, too.

Post by r***@gmail.com
Okay, so you're cross-assembling atop a foreign host OS.
(Use DOSEMU, if you can!)

Yes, my development OS is currently Windows 10.

32-bit or 64-bit? Either way, not totally ideal for DOS.

What am I supposed to do with this link? Download and view the source?

It was written in MASMv5 syntax for TASM (which had one small bug).
So, TASM ignores erroneous "40:" seg overrides (which are invalid).
If you change those to "DS:", roughly speaking, you can then do
"JWasm -Zm", and it'll assemble "as is". But WASM won't work (without
further modifications). That was my main point: WASM is too weak.
While TASM can assemble it in one pass (with minor inefficiencies
in size), WASM apparently can't.

Post by Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
I wanted to learn assembly, 16bit specifically, and in a context where
I'd be able to use what I learn with OpenWatcom C, hence wasm.

You can use NASM with it, presumably. I haven't had tons of experience
there, but it supports "-fobj". Again, WASM isn't horrible, but it's
still lacking a ton, being somewhat incomplete.

In fact, here's FASM dude's attempt at using his newest "fasmg"
to assemble legacy 16-bit code:

* http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=21062

Tomasz also has a YouTube channel, which you may find instructive:

* https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_OWSjmFntZqjzSpgJoBhA/

There's also an oldie (but goodie) 8086/186 disassembly table
from Simtel, which will probably help you:

* cd.textfiles.com/simtel/simtel9703/disk2/DISC2/ASMUTL/DISASM.ZIP

Oh, also HelpPC is helpful (up to 486):

* https://www.sac.sk/download/text/helppc21.zip

And another small reference:

* http://www.jegerlehner.ch/intel/IntelCodeTable.pdf

Even old NASM 0.98.39 came with a fairly good instruction reference
(up through SSE2 or such):

* https://sourceforge.net/projects/nasm/files/nasm%20documentation/0.98.39/

(among dozens of other references)

T. Ment

2019-11-01 01:03:05 UTC